Doug and I discuss how life can influence your book. This is what he did when writing his book. He is a businessman and writing is not his main focus.


Episode 34B Doug Knust Using Life to Influence Your Book

[Stephen] – Doug welcome back once again, since this is focused for writers tell us a little bit about the software and the services that you used when you were writing a book.

[Doug] – Well, I I happened upon a Reedsy just I’m not really sure I probably just did a search and found it and and I use that actually as the the writing tool because I was able to then publish in the in the in the different formats that I needed to send on to Amazon for the self-published to self-publishing really Kindle Direct publishing. I mentioned to you earlier I used my my daughter-in-law was my editor. My son was my graphic artist and the rest of it was kind of just you know, was shoe string stuff. Nothing fancy Steven.

[Stephen] – Okay nice, but that’s great because you can make a good quality product even if you’re not spending thousands of dollars.

[Doug] – Exactly you don’t, I mean, you don’t even need a word processor it’s all online if that’s what the way you want to do it if you’re familiar with if you’re comfortable with a word processor or what are I’m sure that works just fine but, yeah, you you don’t even need the word processor.

[Stephen] – right. So when you we were talking a little bit about marketing you mentioned your target audience and I loved that because I mentioned may also do middle grade fiction and it is difficult because you want to write a book and you want to give it to the seventh and eighth graders, but they are not the ones buying it the parents are the ones buying it and the teachers the and you mentioned grandparents that you get a lot grandparents, so what are you doing to try and reach that audience?

[Doug] – I’ve had I’ve had pretty good success targeting grandparents on Facebook and I you know being a being a car dealer and I’m doing a little marketing doing a little marketing I have I I know that that demographic uses Facebook and especially, you know, the last six weeks during the Christmas season that was that was really surprisingly successful for me. I’ve used some of the Amazon ads kind of targeting some books that had the same subject matter had some reasonable success there as well and then you know, I I’ve given away some books. I put a little card in there asking people to go online and and give me a review and to recommend it and you know, it’s the word of mouth is still a pretty darn good way to advertise.

[Stephen] – Yes and so I take it even though you were on Amazon that you actually probably sell quite a few printed books.

[Doug] – Yeah, the vast majority of my books are printed of the sales are printed books and I think again when you think about the the target end reader off the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade boy, not many of them are running around with an electronic reader. Most of them are if they’re going to read it I think they’re going to read the whole paper version of the book.

[Stephen] – Agreed and of course if you’re talking grandparents, there’s probably less ell, I guess that’s the funny thing, you would think I am talking about grandparents so they’re probably going to want a printed book but the demographics I’ve seen show that there are more people fifty and above using a Kindle and readers then younger people. So you’re getting back to that your marketing of these one set of people that read e-books and hoping they’ll buy a printed book to give to a younger set thats a different demographic.

[Doug] – Exactly. Yeah, it it’s it’s kind of counter-intuitive but you know, it is what it is.

[Stephen] – Yeah. So and this is coming into our big discussion and I love this because you saw a need to help boys young boys in middle school and it caught my interest because I was kind of in the same boat. I was in Boy Scouts back in the eighties and I loved it and I learned a lot of my man lessons there. I learned how to cook. I learned how to clean after cooking a burning it sometimes I you know, I know how to change oil and check my tires and, my wife would argue, that I usually try and hold the door open for she’s probably got a story about that I’m sure. So you saw a need though in your community for these types of skills and I said when I got into the leadership aspect when I was with a cubmaster scoutmaster with my son, I saw a great decline in Boy Scouts and what they were teaching the boys off expecting of the boys. So what you saw a general need you started this club just tell us a little bit about that whole thought at that time what you reseed your son was part of that group what you wanted to teach all these boys.

[Doug] – Yeah. So I again I had I had been working with young men for life, you know, probably fifteen years already by then coaching like I said teaching religious Ed and whatnot and one of the things that I saw through my experience as was the need for young men and and I’m sure this maybe to a certain degree young ladies as well I just hadn’t worked with them like I thought men but didn’t need to be on a team, you know to wear a team uniform and belong and I think that need is so strong it’s ohe reason you see gangs in the inner city. They they they have to be on some kind of a team where they’re working towards a common goal. The goal can be a noble one or it can be a less-than-desirable one and so my idea and the other thing I’d seen is that kids will do virtually anything at that age that you asked them to do if they can do it with their friends, their friends are so important to them and so I kind of tried to combine those two concepts here we’re going to we’re going to put together a group for young guys. We’re going to get these shirts, you know off and you wear this shirt with pride because it means that you’re doing good things in the community and and then we’re going to we’re going to go out and we’re going to we’re going to raise some money for for a good cause and I had no specifics in mind as I started that Stephen and then we when you you know, once you get started down the path, it’s almost like writing a book. Once you get started down the path you see opportunities. You see needs we solve things that young guys could do the that would be appreciated in the community and would cast them in a positive light which is always good for for adolescent boys because I think for a lot of people I see a group of four or five or six young men together they think they’re goes trouble, you know, I mean, I think we’ve been programmed to think that in our culture which is unfortunate but so so we started down this path and and you know, we had we had a wonderful experience the first year and I want to just take a second tell you about it because I think it really launched this organization wage. I did not really know what I was going to do with this group of boys, but I did know some people in state government and in in South Dakota, the state government is small enough that you can load up a group of kids can go up and watch the government in action. You can meet legislators. You can you can even meet the governor. You can meet other elected officials and so I thought you know, let’s let’s do that. I got twenty-five kids this first year. Let’s get a few parents going to load up cars going to take a day off from school to school was has been so supportive and helpful throughout the twenty years of this club and so we went up there to to to appear to the state capital and they were introduced to the to the legislature and had that happen to know the governor at the time and so we got the deployment the governor and got they got their picture taken and it’s worth sitting around the governor’s office he invited the boys into his office took a picture. He said, tell me about the Explorers and one of the kids pipes up and says, well we help people and he said well you help people what are you helping with? And so one of the kids says well, we’re going to help the city build a softball field. Our community was trying to trying to be able to softball complex and we committed to trying to help raise a little money toward that end and so the governor loved that. He said you’re going to help your community build a softball field? That’s a wonderful. Tll me what you’re going to do or how much you’re going to how much you can give them. We hadn’t even talked about I thought if we could give thousand dollars to the cause that would be a pretty good that would be a pretty good contribution and one of the kids says five thousand bucks. We’re going to give five thousand bucks and I’m like what and and the governor and I knew each other and he looked at me and kind of you know, he just ate that up kind of, you know winked at me. He said well, I’ll tell you what guys that’s wonderful if you guys raised $5,000 for your community. I’m going to match it. I’ve got a fund that I can match it up and their kids are all high five in each other. They’re high five and the governor. He’s loving this, right? So, you know the kids go out in the hall we’re going on to our next appointment whatever it was and I said, thanks a lot and he said you’ll get her done, you know, so kind of hand on the shoulder you’ll get it done. Well that was in January and by the end of the school year was the challenge so, you know, I looked at a whole bunch of different ways that we could raise some money and I finally landed on we’re going to do a wash-a-thon with cars. We called it, The Explorers versus dirty cars. The boys went out and took pledges and then we washed the cars for free and it was the last The first week of May was the last Saturday before school got out the boys washed, I think it was seventy-five cars and they they had raised a little bit of money with a with a memorabilia auction before I think they raised like forty-one hundred on this car wash and and we got to fifty-one hundred bucks and we made we made them the bogey. So the next day the Monday after the car wash I I called the governor’s office and ask to speak to the governor he picked up and and I said, well, you won’t believe this but the boys had a car wash over the weekend and they get all the money collected it’s going to put them over the top I think you’re going to be at fifty-one hunderd bucks. He said well, that’s great and I said so what do you think you want to do? You want to send a check down or what? Do you think? He said? No. No. He said let’s let’s I want to come down and present it to him and I’m like, what? Yeah, I want come down and present it to them. So he said you think we could kind of put together a little assembly or something? Well our our Middle School principal had two boys in the program so I thought that there was pretty good chance that I could get her to put something together and and she did and so it was the very next day on that Tuesday the governor flew down and went up to get him at the airport and he had this, you know oversized check for pictures like any kept hiding it off he wouldn’t let me see it. So we walk into the to the gymnasium where all the kids are and the kids give them a big hand and the chorus plays or sings a couple songs in the band plays the song and then I stand up in front of everybody and I kind of tell the story that I’ve just told to you and then I introduced the governor and the governor tells his version of the story I just told you which I have to tell you was pretty hilarious, right cause he picked up on all the little nuances of the boys and whatnot described it to a t but he said, you know, he said this this is one of the coolest things I’ve ever been around. He said we got you know, Native American Kids working next to non-native American kids, white kids it doesn’t matter. They didn’t know the difference. They were working together on a team towards a common goal and he said I love that. So I said well I decided to do is I’m going to double up and pulls out his check and he says I brought ten thousand dollars down here to present to you so the Explorers will have fifteen thousand dollars to give to the city of Chamberlain for the softball field in the whole, you know, the kids are all the boys are standing up there with their shirts on and they’re high-fiving each other. The governor goes down the line and he’s high-fiving and everybody and all the kids in the audience are high-fiving and they’re standing there cheering the teachers and everything and you know, Stephen after that I couldn’t a mess that that whole program up it was the the governor helped to launch it so successfully that it would have been hard for me to mess it up after that point.

[Stephen] – That is has such a good story Doug and I think the things you’re doing a community just buy this one thing it’s it’s incredible. Too often people are like, well, what can I do? What difference can I make there’s so many things you can do. You don’t have to think that you’re going to work and you’re going to have to give money and yet you’re helping these boys which then helps the community.

[Doug] – Yeah, so so that you bring up a really good point and if there’s anything that your listeners got from our conversation, I’d just like to give them a little food for thought. I am one appreciates people who donate money I think you know those who have the resources to donate God bless them and I’ve done some fund-raising and I appreciate all that but but I am I think the one thing to remember is that we’re all equal in the respect that we all have twenty-four hours in every day and what we do with that twenty-four hours how we spend it is essentially how we did not say what our priorities are and so I think you know if you have a passion for something and you spend your time on that passion, that’s that’s how that’s how you commit that’s how you spend and you can make a huge difference without ever given a dollar to somebody just by spending time with them and dedicating time towards a cause.

[Stephen] – And for the boys, you’re giving them a purpose without hitting them over the head or without announcing we have a purpose of this is why we do this. You’re just teaching boys how to grow up and how to be men and not and I I told you I was in Boy Scouts and that kind of was really the whole goal when I would ask people, you know, what is the purpose of Boy Scouts? I would always get well to earn merit badges well to go camping off and on and on and I’m like no, you’re totally missing the point. The point of Boy Scouts is to turn young boys into young men and show them how to be an adult and way we do it is by teaching them different skills. When I was in Scouts it was very much mostly outdoor skills camping and Leadership and helping others in all of that and it’s a nice rest a little bit and some of those skills are making video games or you know, programming computers, but the whole point still is to teach them how to be men and adults and grow up and the people that miss that point didn’t understand what Scouts was. A lot of those parents, well, I just have my son in here so he can get Eagle and put that on his resume. They didn’t care. They didn’t care what it was about they didn’t we would have a Memorial Day services and I would tell the boys, okay, one of your things you have to get signed off is a flag raising ceremony. Well, that’s Memorial Day so show up for Memorial Day walk in the parade and raise the flag and I told parents look what the the first year or two that they’re in Scouts commit to doing this and do it and they can earn that and earn the pride there were parents that resisted that refused to go to the parade refused to have their boys in it and then unfortunately the some of the other leaders that didn’t get it either just said well come here and they said come over here and raise the flag okay, we’ll sign it off. I’m like well that is not a ceremony. So they really missed the point of what they were trying to be teaching the boys what the boys were supposed to learn. It was really about.

[Doug] – Checking that box.

[Stephen] – Yes. Missing the point. Yeah, and it’s funny too because you wrote a book you did something and then you wrote a book whereas Baden-Powell also started something and wrote the book but now, you know, I can’t see parents going into Boy Scouts and then writing a book about things they’re boys learned cause that doesn’t seem to be their focus and I think that’s sad.

[Doug] – Yes, it is.

[Stephen] – You’ve got to push boys. you’ve gotta have them do these things that’s what makes them grow.

[Doug] – I you know, one of the rewarding things about working with these young guys is sometimes you just don’t know how long I liken it to throwing seeds out there you don’t know which ones hit the concrete and which ones bounce off the concrete into fertile soil but at some point with virtually every young man, I’ve had the opportunity to work with over the last twenty years. I can see where there was a connection you know, they whether they finally figured out that you know, not only am I you know after school with my buddy help and rake leaves for this, you know this older couple that maybe wouldn’t otherwise get their leaves rig. I’m helping people and it’s that you know, not everybody is born with leadership skills but servant leadership is something that anybody can do, you know do the right thing help people and and others will follow and even if they don’t you’re still a leader.

[Stephen] – Yes, and the leadership is extremely important and that’s one of the things I liked about Boy Scouts was you were having the boys be leaders and do the things the boys elected their own leaders and that boy would lead their group and they would be the ones to make sure all the camping equipment is ready and make sure every boy had warm dry socks on and stuff like that and nowadays from what I’ve seen that doesn’t happen. They elect the boy leaders so it can get signed off in his book but the parents and adults do everything and take care of everything including cooking.

[Doug] – Exactly, you know in part of the great leadership experience is making a mistake. I mean, that’s the great lessons that I’ve learned in my life were made were mistakes I made you know, and and my kids well, my kids could hear me say this they’d laugh at me cause I always tell him learn from others mistakes because you’re not going to live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself, you know, but if you’ve never if you never let kids go to make the mistakes, they won’t learn those lessons.

[Stephen] – Right. The boy that can teach anything the best is the one that screwed it up when he was trying to learn it. I saw it every time. A great example I had was they they all need to get cooking merit badge and there’s also other cooking requirements just to move up in rank so I had this wonderful idea why don’t we have a camp out and we make it an Iron Chef cook out that Saturday breakfast, lunch, and dinner the patrols would plan a lavish meal for each one of those three meals something unique different whatever and they would have to cook it and then the adults would go through and judge and I had a parent yelling and arguing with me that it’s ridiculous. That you know, what if they wanted to make biscuits. They don’t know how to make biscuits. They’ve never made biscuits. So it’s ridiculous of me to expect them to and like that’s the whole point. Let them learn let them figure it out or let them ask how to do it and and beforehand they get taught how to do it. That’s the point and they yelled and argued with me and I’m like, you totally don’t get it to you do and the thing was I knew I deep in my heart I was the one doing the right thing but because the other people didn’t understand it it made it look like I was the one wrong and I was the idoit I guess.

[Doug] – You know, it would it would be appropriate for me to tell you that how fortunate I have been through the twenty years of my Explorers program to have such support from from parents and grandparents and kind of a hands-off approach, you know, but when I need like drivers we continue to go up to appear to the state government every year at the end of the year we go to Minneapolis or Kansas City or Denver to see a couple of Major League Baseball games kind of as a reward, but I always get volunteers to drive and may help chaperone dances all that kind of stuff so I’ve been really fortunate in the respect that I haven’t had pet parents meddle with the program. It’s the boys program. I don’t like I don’t like it to be called anything that that there’s my possession you know, it’s it’s the Explorers. I’m the advisor I help with an agenda. I help them do their thing wage, but I want it to be the boys program for for the reasons that you just suggested because they learn they learn from their mistakes. They learn from their successes and if you got somebody that’s leading them around making sure they do the right thing or or they don’t make mistakes they don’t they don’t learn near as much but I’ve had wonderful support wonderful support.

[Stephen] – That’s and and those boys remember those lessons. I mean like we were talking about with changing oil or checking a tire. Those are things they may not use very much in today’s world, but they do know how to do it and there’s a sense of confidence that it builds so when they come up against something they don’t know how to do they have the confidence of figure it out or to try or to go forward there. I’ve said, cause I have a talk that I’ve been working on giving on how the work world is changing and how to prepare our kids now for the work world of tomorrow and one of the things I say is kids to go climb trees because I had some of my friends some of my kids friends that came over and they were afraid to climb a tree and I’m like that right there sums it up to me as to something we need to teach our kids go climb a tree get outside climb a tree and see if you break your arm and it sounds like I know I know their parents that would listen to us and like condemn me for child abuse or or whatever because I said kids might break their arm when they climb a tree but

[Doug] – But but it is a metaphor for for the you know, the the helicopter parents that that that we have, you know, I mean again, I I know it’s a different world than the one that I grew up in but man I had some Huck Finn type experiences growing up and and I learned a lot from it. I learned a lot from home from us, you know bloody knees and from broken bones and and that kind of stuff, you know.

[Stephen] – Right. Yeah. I mean just a teaser I could tell you about the wood that ended up in the eggnog. I could tell you about the fencing that got knocked over because my head hit it because of the borough drug me through it off.

[Doug] – Yeah, I can relate relate

[Stephen] – And and the bring the kind of back down the writing again you wrote this book based on your life on your experiences on a need you saw in the community. I think sometimes people disregard their own knowledge and skills and things that they know how to do that seemed easy to them or things they’ve been doing a long time. They think nobody else needs to know how to do it or everybody already does but there’s a lot of things out there that people could write about in their own voice and teach others and put it in a book.

[Doug] – Yeah. Yep. I I agree with that completely, you know, but you picked up the book that I wrote and you look at it and every chapter is something that most adult only men and probably most women already know. I have heard that I include some details and some some other, you know, maybe little extras that they don’t otherwise get but what I did do that, I think kind of brings it home to people is I tried to sprinkle in some personal anecdotes from as I grew up or stories from some of the the story I told you about the governor coming down and and presented check that that’s in my chapter that introduces my chapter on goal-setting in the importance of working together toward a goal and what not, but it’s it’s a great story and and it’s a success and and it really, you know makes for a good way to to show how important working on goals is working on goals together is and whatnot. So again, I tried to I tried to do you make it a little bit more interesting by by sharing these stories to go, you know the kind of match up with the lesson I’m trying to teach.

[Stephen] – And I love them let me phrase it this way. I see that you could have written this book in two different ways. You could have written a book as a guide book for parents who have young boys and you could have done this and teach them to do this, but you didn’t do it that way you chose to put it in a voice written directly to the younger crowd and I think that’s also a choice many authors need to look at and make is what would get your message across the best and even though some would argue, well, the parents are for teaching the boys so right this to guide the parents and show them what to do, but you didn’t you felt it kind of in the boy’s hands to read the book and learn these things. Did you consciously think of that or?

[Doug] – I did do I did do that Stephen and and and I as I say, you know as I’d write a chapter that one one of the times that I read through it, I I made a conscious effort not to be preachy to the young men because they hate that I know they hate that they don’t like to be talked down to so again, I wanted to make it a conversational but yet I found that as I wrote it that way and again thinking of that single mother who has such a difficult challenge in raising a young man anyway, let alone teaching these skills or or ideas that you know, she may never been taught because she was a young lady at one point rather new young man, maybe using this as a a guide or a or a start for a little visit about some of these things so you know, you know, you know how to do this that or whatever well here take a look in this book read about it and maybe we can talk about it you know, that kind of thing. So I tried to I tried to bring those two ideas together to to make it, you know, very conversational to a young man but also allow, you know, not just a single mom parents can use it as well, but it’s the young man can sit down and read he doesn’t need somebody to to to preach to him.

[Stephen] – Right and I like that. thought that just popped into my head. Have you thought of writing a companion book that’s maybe a smaller thing or whatever for parents that goes into why you have a certain section or what the boys are learning in this section, but it’s written for the parent as a additional thing so they can maybe help guide the boys that may struggle or have problems cause someone in Florida that’s never going to meet you, you know, it may be helpful, just just a thought if you thought of anything like that.

[Doug] – I’m making a notice to say that I have I’d also had a suggestion that I would maybe create a journal type of book where there could be a lesson and then they could kind of add their thoughts on on the lesson and and how they applied it to to their life or whatever may be so, geeze you’re going to you’re going to make an author out to me yet Stephen.

[Stephen] – It’s kind of funny you say that cause I do another podcast with a friend and we talk about lots of nerd and geek type of stuff pop culture and that and one of his goals this year is to write a book I said, well, just let me know I’ve got an overwhelming amount of podcasts and websites and other books for you to read but I think that’s one of their also exciting things in today’s world. I have a friend who writes sci-fi he’s been published for thirty-three years, thirty-five years and he was writing a series of books and after he wrote the first one is writing the second one the publisher said hey, this is not selling that well, so we’re not going to do another one after the second book. So we went, ah man and had to like change all of book two and end things and just you know tie up all the loose ends then book two came out and book one and two both took off and sold really well and the publisher said hey, why don’t you write a third or more, you know write a whole series and he liked was stupefied. He was like well, I just kind of you know screwed myself up because I now closed all of that down. With self-publishing you have the choice, you know, so what if you’re booked only sells a hundred if you got the book out there you wanted and the way what and you still have that option to keep going into it and there’s so many things cause this is probably not anything you want to do, but you could probably create a course that’s online for boys to take and go through it and be you with your face and talking teaching these lessons just the way you do it with your boys right there in town, you know, I mean as an author there’s so many things you can do and keep going with a book like this a workbook, a second book, doing a book for girls or you know, something along those lines.

[Doug] – You know, it’s ironic. I have two daughters and a son and I did the book for for the boys but I’d need a lot of help doing the one for the girls

[Stephen] – And I I bet though, you could probably find an author that is kind of thinking the same and you probably could co-authors. Yeah, you never know I mean if you get tired of cars.

[Doug] – Well there are days if that’s the case

[Stephen] – I bet. Well if I ever get out your way, I’m going to stop your dealership and we’ll have to meet some of these boys and see some of these get-togethers you guys have for your group, I’d love to meet them and see how things go.

[Doug] – Oh, I I would I would love that. I have to tell you this morning we had a meeting at seven thirty and our lesson this morning we spend the when we learn how to tie ties we have to spend two whole meetings because it’s not something you can do in ten minutes and so here we were this morning we had the guys tie in a double overhand knot in the next week will work on the windsor knot and it’s so much fun. It’s just it really is fun I look forward to that every week. It’s the high point of my week.

[Stephen] – Well, well, I know I can still start a fire without gas, paper and only two matches and I can still tie like twelve different knots behind my back home so it’s important to learn these skills and they stay with you.

[Doug] – Absolutely. Yeah. I I made the comment this morning Boy Scouts tie knots and Explorers tie ties and there’s a and a place for both.

[Stephen] – Right. Well, you know, there’s probably some good knots to integrate cause I cringe when I see people trying to tie something and they just keep doing twenty million overhand knots and twist it around as if that makes it better.

[Doug] – I don’t know if you remember I told you I’m a sailor. So, you know, I’ve got a good a good appreciation for knots.

[Stephen] – There we go. Good know. Can yout tie it behind your back?

[Doug] – I always tie it at it looking at it.

[Stephen] – That was just our challenge.

[Doug] – Of course, of course.

[Stephen] – Which is another great thing, you know boys challenge each other and push each other and that feeds off itselfs.

[Doug] – It sure does.

[Stephen] – Great well to tie things up here. Do you have any last minute advice? You’d say I know we talked about this a bit on the last part of the podcast, but any last minute advice needs to an author that maybe wanting to write a book for boys.

[Doug] – You know, if you’re I guess it depends if you’re writing too boys as the audience. Tell stories, I think all young people but especially young men love to hear stories and you know to let the lesson can be in the story and I think there have been a lot of very skillful skillful authors that have have figured that out but my experience is that if you can tell a story wrapped around a lesson the lesson hits home a lot better.

[Stephen] – I love that. That’s great. Hey one last real quick question personally. You said you teach Sunday school and things do you incorporate some of the religious life turns into your Explorer group?

[Doug] – Well, you know, I I’m I’m a Christian I’m Catholic I pretty much everything that I do with the boys is, I guess the foundational is is Christian. I like to incorporate the Chris the Christian ideals and everything I teach the boys. Again I don’t want to be preachy at the end of the day, you know treat people right do the right thing and and everything will work out so, you know from that standpoint I do try to incorporate that usually all the the young men that are in my religious ed class are in the Explorers group so they get a double dose of me. They’re probably pretty sick and tired of wage the time they’re done with eighth grade.

[Stephen] – Well, I know Boy Scouts encouraged religious beliefs, but they didn’t dictate one way or the other and there were, you could earn a religious award for whatever your beliefs were and they always did try to have a service on Sunday when you were at camp, but they tried to keep it as open as possible and I’ll tell ya, I have a very hard time enjoying any type of religious service nowadays or even feeling I guess as close to the maker, God, or whatever you want term as I did when I was younger and sitting in a forest on the side of a mountain watching the shadow from our mountain may go down the mountain across from us while somebody was reading some scriptures out of the Bible. There was just no other experience like that.

[Doug] – Well in my religious ed class one of the questions that are when we’re when we’re talking about the first commandment I asked the boys when they feel closest to to God and before I asked him if he could answer I tell them that the time that I feel closest to God is when I’m sitting on the side of the hill watching the sunset over the Missouri River here in Central South Dakota. Maybe I’ve got orange on and I’m hunting deer dead or I’m hunting geese or maybe I’m just you know sitting out there but there’s nothing like there’s nothing like God’s majesty of nature to bring it home to you.

[Stephen] – Absolutely. I agree. I wish more people would experience that type of feeling I think there’d be some less problems in the world.

[Doug] – I agree.

[Stephen] – Well Doug I appreciate you taking so much time to talk to me today has been a great topic in your book is great. I’m I’m going to go check it out on Amazon as soon as we’re done here. I think my youngest who’s in middle school would probably love it.

[Doug] – Well, I appreciate that Steve and I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you. I’ve I’ve enjoyed our I’ve enjoyed our visit immensely.

[Stephen] – Great. Well Doug it was wonderful talking to you and I wish you luck.

[Doug] – Thank you very much.