Author Discussion

Episode 38B – Kevin Fellows – Marketing Fantasy

Kevin and Stephen talk about how to market fantasy stories in today’s world. Kevin doesn’t like writing typical fantasy, and this makes marketing even more difficult. Publishing poetry also adds interesting elements to trying to market.

Kevin talks about not following marketing advice and why the general advice doesn’t work for his books.

Discovered Wordsmiths fantasy Fiction sci-fi

Episode 38A – Kevin Fellows – At the end of the world

Kevin has lived all over the U.S. but currently lives in the southwest. He has daughters and loves to read. When he had a heart attack, he realized he needed to work on his writing if her ever wanted to get his books out.

He is published with Modern Folklore Press, where his current book is coming out.

One of his favorite books is:

Bookstores he enjoys:

The Writers Block – Las Vegas

Gibson’s Bookstore – Concorde, NH

Author Discussion

Episode 37B – K.S. Barton – Community

Kim and I continue talking, but we switch from her book to talking about communities. Specifically, author communities and how they benefit writers.

We have both been in different groups and met in a great mastermind group. Everyone has different experiences and all groups are different, but there are good and bad to look for.

Discovered Wordsmiths fantasy Fiction romance

Episode 37A – K.S. Barton – Warrior and Weaver

KS Barton Website

Kim has the best job as a writer – she works in a library! Besides writing, she enjoys drums, dancing and aikido – which she has practiced for 17 years. She writes and shelves books at her local library in Tucson, Arizona.

Her first book was about Aikido, but she has written her first fiction book that involves Norse mythology and history.

One of her favorite books:

A local bookstore she likes to frequent:

Author Discussion

Episode 36B – Ran – Mental Health and Writers

Besides writing, Ran works in the mental health field, so discussing mental health and how it affects writers was a natural. We also discuss how writers can take care of their mental health to continue writing.

Discovered Wordsmiths Fiction Non-Fiction

Episode 36A – Ran – Journey of Faith

Ran lives in Ontario Canada, and as we talked, the temp was WAY below zero. She works in the mental health field, which is what we talk about in the second half, but she views her writing as a major part of her life, starting at the tender age of 6.

She’s also an avid board/card gamer, which I can relate to. Playing games can be very creative and is also a good way to relax.

She is working on publishing her first books but she has been a part of publishing a memoir written by her grandfather. The book has been sitting around for over 30 years and Ran worked to get its story out to the world.

Some of her favorite books:

The bookstore she likes is 2 hours north of here – Chat Noir

Author Discussion Non-Fiction

Episode 35B – Jeff Johnson – Writing as a major life change

Jeff has had several changes in his life – lawyer to politician to writer to CEO of a non-profit. We talk about how to handle those changes and why he chose to make writer one of those life changes.

Discovered Wordsmiths Non-Fiction

Episode 35A – Jeff Johnson – Boy Lessons

Jeff has several boys, and like other authors, used what he learned raising his kids to write a book. He has been a lawyer and politician, and adds writer to his resume.

Besides this book, he runs a non-profit calls Can Do Canines where they raise and train service dogs.

Jeff recommends this book:

Author Discussion

Episode 34B – Doug Knust – Using life to influence your book

Doug and I discuss how life can influence your book. This is what he did when writing his book. He is a businessman and writing is not his main focus.


Episode 34B Doug Knust Using Life to Influence Your Book

[Stephen] – Doug welcome back once again, since this is focused for writers tell us a little bit about the software and the services that you used when you were writing a book.

[Doug] – Well, I I happened upon a Reedsy just I’m not really sure I probably just did a search and found it and and I use that actually as the the writing tool because I was able to then publish in the in the in the different formats that I needed to send on to Amazon for the self-published to self-publishing really Kindle Direct publishing. I mentioned to you earlier I used my my daughter-in-law was my editor. My son was my graphic artist and the rest of it was kind of just you know, was shoe string stuff. Nothing fancy Steven.

[Stephen] – Okay nice, but that’s great because you can make a good quality product even if you’re not spending thousands of dollars.

[Doug] – Exactly you don’t, I mean, you don’t even need a word processor it’s all online if that’s what the way you want to do it if you’re familiar with if you’re comfortable with a word processor or what are I’m sure that works just fine but, yeah, you you don’t even need the word processor.

[Stephen] – right. So when you we were talking a little bit about marketing you mentioned your target audience and I loved that because I mentioned may also do middle grade fiction and it is difficult because you want to write a book and you want to give it to the seventh and eighth graders, but they are not the ones buying it the parents are the ones buying it and the teachers the and you mentioned grandparents that you get a lot grandparents, so what are you doing to try and reach that audience?

[Doug] – I’ve had I’ve had pretty good success targeting grandparents on Facebook and I you know being a being a car dealer and I’m doing a little marketing doing a little marketing I have I I know that that demographic uses Facebook and especially, you know, the last six weeks during the Christmas season that was that was really surprisingly successful for me. I’ve used some of the Amazon ads kind of targeting some books that had the same subject matter had some reasonable success there as well and then you know, I I’ve given away some books. I put a little card in there asking people to go online and and give me a review and to recommend it and you know, it’s the word of mouth is still a pretty darn good way to advertise.

[Stephen] – Yes and so I take it even though you were on Amazon that you actually probably sell quite a few printed books.

[Doug] – Yeah, the vast majority of my books are printed of the sales are printed books and I think again when you think about the the target end reader off the sixth, seventh, and eighth grade boy, not many of them are running around with an electronic reader. Most of them are if they’re going to read it I think they’re going to read the whole paper version of the book.

[Stephen] – Agreed and of course if you’re talking grandparents, there’s probably less ell, I guess that’s the funny thing, you would think I am talking about grandparents so they’re probably going to want a printed book but the demographics I’ve seen show that there are more people fifty and above using a Kindle and readers then younger people. So you’re getting back to that your marketing of these one set of people that read e-books and hoping they’ll buy a printed book to give to a younger set thats a different demographic.

[Doug] – Exactly. Yeah, it it’s it’s kind of counter-intuitive but you know, it is what it is.

[Stephen] – Yeah. So and this is coming into our big discussion and I love this because you saw a need to help boys young boys in middle school and it caught my interest because I was kind of in the same boat. I was in Boy Scouts back in the eighties and I loved it and I learned a lot of my man lessons there. I learned how to cook. I learned how to clean after cooking a burning it sometimes I you know, I know how to change oil and check my tires and, my wife would argue, that I usually try and hold the door open for she’s probably got a story about that I’m sure. So you saw a need though in your community for these types of skills and I said when I got into the leadership aspect when I was with a cubmaster scoutmaster with my son, I saw a great decline in Boy Scouts and what they were teaching the boys off expecting of the boys. So what you saw a general need you started this club just tell us a little bit about that whole thought at that time what you reseed your son was part of that group what you wanted to teach all these boys.

[Doug] – Yeah. So I again I had I had been working with young men for life, you know, probably fifteen years already by then coaching like I said teaching religious Ed and whatnot and one of the things that I saw through my experience as was the need for young men and and I’m sure this maybe to a certain degree young ladies as well I just hadn’t worked with them like I thought men but didn’t need to be on a team, you know to wear a team uniform and belong and I think that need is so strong it’s ohe reason you see gangs in the inner city. They they they have to be on some kind of a team where they’re working towards a common goal. The goal can be a noble one or it can be a less-than-desirable one and so my idea and the other thing I’d seen is that kids will do virtually anything at that age that you asked them to do if they can do it with their friends, their friends are so important to them and so I kind of tried to combine those two concepts here we’re going to we’re going to put together a group for young guys. We’re going to get these shirts, you know off and you wear this shirt with pride because it means that you’re doing good things in the community and and then we’re going to we’re going to go out and we’re going to we’re going to raise some money for for a good cause and I had no specifics in mind as I started that Stephen and then we when you you know, once you get started down the path, it’s almost like writing a book. Once you get started down the path you see opportunities. You see needs we solve things that young guys could do the that would be appreciated in the community and would cast them in a positive light which is always good for for adolescent boys because I think for a lot of people I see a group of four or five or six young men together they think they’re goes trouble, you know, I mean, I think we’ve been programmed to think that in our culture which is unfortunate but so so we started down this path and and you know, we had we had a wonderful experience the first year and I want to just take a second tell you about it because I think it really launched this organization wage. I did not really know what I was going to do with this group of boys, but I did know some people in state government and in in South Dakota, the state government is small enough that you can load up a group of kids can go up and watch the government in action. You can meet legislators. You can you can even meet the governor. You can meet other elected officials and so I thought you know, let’s let’s do that. I got twenty-five kids this first year. Let’s get a few parents going to load up cars going to take a day off from school to school was has been so supportive and helpful throughout the twenty years of this club and so we went up there to to to appear to the state capital and they were introduced to the to the legislature and had that happen to know the governor at the time and so we got the deployment the governor and got they got their picture taken and it’s worth sitting around the governor’s office he invited the boys into his office took a picture. He said, tell me about the Explorers and one of the kids pipes up and says, well we help people and he said well you help people what are you helping with? And so one of the kids says well, we’re going to help the city build a softball field. Our community was trying to trying to be able to softball complex and we committed to trying to help raise a little money toward that end and so the governor loved that. He said you’re going to help your community build a softball field? That’s a wonderful. Tll me what you’re going to do or how much you’re going to how much you can give them. We hadn’t even talked about I thought if we could give thousand dollars to the cause that would be a pretty good that would be a pretty good contribution and one of the kids says five thousand bucks. We’re going to give five thousand bucks and I’m like what and and the governor and I knew each other and he looked at me and kind of you know, he just ate that up kind of, you know winked at me. He said well, I’ll tell you what guys that’s wonderful if you guys raised $5,000 for your community. I’m going to match it. I’ve got a fund that I can match it up and their kids are all high five in each other. They’re high five and the governor. He’s loving this, right? So, you know the kids go out in the hall we’re going on to our next appointment whatever it was and I said, thanks a lot and he said you’ll get her done, you know, so kind of hand on the shoulder you’ll get it done. Well that was in January and by the end of the school year was the challenge so, you know, I looked at a whole bunch of different ways that we could raise some money and I finally landed on we’re going to do a wash-a-thon with cars. We called it, The Explorers versus dirty cars. The boys went out and took pledges and then we washed the cars for free and it was the last The first week of May was the last Saturday before school got out the boys washed, I think it was seventy-five cars and they they had raised a little bit of money with a with a memorabilia auction before I think they raised like forty-one hundred on this car wash and and we got to fifty-one hundred bucks and we made we made them the bogey. So the next day the Monday after the car wash I I called the governor’s office and ask to speak to the governor he picked up and and I said, well, you won’t believe this but the boys had a car wash over the weekend and they get all the money collected it’s going to put them over the top I think you’re going to be at fifty-one hunderd bucks. He said well, that’s great and I said so what do you think you want to do? You want to send a check down or what? Do you think? He said? No. No. He said let’s let’s I want to come down and present it to him and I’m like, what? Yeah, I want come down and present it to them. So he said you think we could kind of put together a little assembly or something? Well our our Middle School principal had two boys in the program so I thought that there was pretty good chance that I could get her to put something together and and she did and so it was the very next day on that Tuesday the governor flew down and went up to get him at the airport and he had this, you know oversized check for pictures like any kept hiding it off he wouldn’t let me see it. So we walk into the to the gymnasium where all the kids are and the kids give them a big hand and the chorus plays or sings a couple songs in the band plays the song and then I stand up in front of everybody and I kind of tell the story that I’ve just told to you and then I introduced the governor and the governor tells his version of the story I just told you which I have to tell you was pretty hilarious, right cause he picked up on all the little nuances of the boys and whatnot described it to a t but he said, you know, he said this this is one of the coolest things I’ve ever been around. He said we got you know, Native American Kids working next to non-native American kids, white kids it doesn’t matter. They didn’t know the difference. They were working together on a team towards a common goal and he said I love that. So I said well I decided to do is I’m going to double up and pulls out his check and he says I brought ten thousand dollars down here to present to you so the Explorers will have fifteen thousand dollars to give to the city of Chamberlain for the softball field in the whole, you know, the kids are all the boys are standing up there with their shirts on and they’re high-fiving each other. The governor goes down the line and he’s high-fiving and everybody and all the kids in the audience are high-fiving and they’re standing there cheering the teachers and everything and you know, Stephen after that I couldn’t a mess that that whole program up it was the the governor helped to launch it so successfully that it would have been hard for me to mess it up after that point.

[Stephen] – That is has such a good story Doug and I think the things you’re doing a community just buy this one thing it’s it’s incredible. Too often people are like, well, what can I do? What difference can I make there’s so many things you can do. You don’t have to think that you’re going to work and you’re going to have to give money and yet you’re helping these boys which then helps the community.

[Doug] – Yeah, so so that you bring up a really good point and if there’s anything that your listeners got from our conversation, I’d just like to give them a little food for thought. I am one appreciates people who donate money I think you know those who have the resources to donate God bless them and I’ve done some fund-raising and I appreciate all that but but I am I think the one thing to remember is that we’re all equal in the respect that we all have twenty-four hours in every day and what we do with that twenty-four hours how we spend it is essentially how we did not say what our priorities are and so I think you know if you have a passion for something and you spend your time on that passion, that’s that’s how that’s how you commit that’s how you spend and you can make a huge difference without ever given a dollar to somebody just by spending time with them and dedicating time towards a cause.

[Stephen] – And for the boys, you’re giving them a purpose without hitting them over the head or without announcing we have a purpose of this is why we do this. You’re just teaching boys how to grow up and how to be men and not and I I told you I was in Boy Scouts and that kind of was really the whole goal when I would ask people, you know, what is the purpose of Boy Scouts? I would always get well to earn merit badges well to go camping off and on and on and I’m like no, you’re totally missing the point. The point of Boy Scouts is to turn young boys into young men and show them how to be an adult and way we do it is by teaching them different skills. When I was in Scouts it was very much mostly outdoor skills camping and Leadership and helping others in all of that and it’s a nice rest a little bit and some of those skills are making video games or you know, programming computers, but the whole point still is to teach them how to be men and adults and grow up and the people that miss that point didn’t understand what Scouts was. A lot of those parents, well, I just have my son in here so he can get Eagle and put that on his resume. They didn’t care. They didn’t care what it was about they didn’t we would have a Memorial Day services and I would tell the boys, okay, one of your things you have to get signed off is a flag raising ceremony. Well, that’s Memorial Day so show up for Memorial Day walk in the parade and raise the flag and I told parents look what the the first year or two that they’re in Scouts commit to doing this and do it and they can earn that and earn the pride there were parents that resisted that refused to go to the parade refused to have their boys in it and then unfortunately the some of the other leaders that didn’t get it either just said well come here and they said come over here and raise the flag okay, we’ll sign it off. I’m like well that is not a ceremony. So they really missed the point of what they were trying to be teaching the boys what the boys were supposed to learn. It was really about.

[Doug] – Checking that box.

[Stephen] – Yes. Missing the point. Yeah, and it’s funny too because you wrote a book you did something and then you wrote a book whereas Baden-Powell also started something and wrote the book but now, you know, I can’t see parents going into Boy Scouts and then writing a book about things they’re boys learned cause that doesn’t seem to be their focus and I think that’s sad.

[Doug] – Yes, it is.

[Stephen] – You’ve got to push boys. you’ve gotta have them do these things that’s what makes them grow.

[Doug] – I you know, one of the rewarding things about working with these young guys is sometimes you just don’t know how long I liken it to throwing seeds out there you don’t know which ones hit the concrete and which ones bounce off the concrete into fertile soil but at some point with virtually every young man, I’ve had the opportunity to work with over the last twenty years. I can see where there was a connection you know, they whether they finally figured out that you know, not only am I you know after school with my buddy help and rake leaves for this, you know this older couple that maybe wouldn’t otherwise get their leaves rig. I’m helping people and it’s that you know, not everybody is born with leadership skills but servant leadership is something that anybody can do, you know do the right thing help people and and others will follow and even if they don’t you’re still a leader.

[Stephen] – Yes, and the leadership is extremely important and that’s one of the things I liked about Boy Scouts was you were having the boys be leaders and do the things the boys elected their own leaders and that boy would lead their group and they would be the ones to make sure all the camping equipment is ready and make sure every boy had warm dry socks on and stuff like that and nowadays from what I’ve seen that doesn’t happen. They elect the boy leaders so it can get signed off in his book but the parents and adults do everything and take care of everything including cooking.

[Doug] – Exactly, you know in part of the great leadership experience is making a mistake. I mean, that’s the great lessons that I’ve learned in my life were made were mistakes I made you know, and and my kids well, my kids could hear me say this they’d laugh at me cause I always tell him learn from others mistakes because you’re not going to live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself, you know, but if you’ve never if you never let kids go to make the mistakes, they won’t learn those lessons.

[Stephen] – Right. The boy that can teach anything the best is the one that screwed it up when he was trying to learn it. I saw it every time. A great example I had was they they all need to get cooking merit badge and there’s also other cooking requirements just to move up in rank so I had this wonderful idea why don’t we have a camp out and we make it an Iron Chef cook out that Saturday breakfast, lunch, and dinner the patrols would plan a lavish meal for each one of those three meals something unique different whatever and they would have to cook it and then the adults would go through and judge and I had a parent yelling and arguing with me that it’s ridiculous. That you know, what if they wanted to make biscuits. They don’t know how to make biscuits. They’ve never made biscuits. So it’s ridiculous of me to expect them to and like that’s the whole point. Let them learn let them figure it out or let them ask how to do it and and beforehand they get taught how to do it. That’s the point and they yelled and argued with me and I’m like, you totally don’t get it to you do and the thing was I knew I deep in my heart I was the one doing the right thing but because the other people didn’t understand it it made it look like I was the one wrong and I was the idoit I guess.

[Doug] – You know, it would it would be appropriate for me to tell you that how fortunate I have been through the twenty years of my Explorers program to have such support from from parents and grandparents and kind of a hands-off approach, you know, but when I need like drivers we continue to go up to appear to the state government every year at the end of the year we go to Minneapolis or Kansas City or Denver to see a couple of Major League Baseball games kind of as a reward, but I always get volunteers to drive and may help chaperone dances all that kind of stuff so I’ve been really fortunate in the respect that I haven’t had pet parents meddle with the program. It’s the boys program. I don’t like I don’t like it to be called anything that that there’s my possession you know, it’s it’s the Explorers. I’m the advisor I help with an agenda. I help them do their thing wage, but I want it to be the boys program for for the reasons that you just suggested because they learn they learn from their mistakes. They learn from their successes and if you got somebody that’s leading them around making sure they do the right thing or or they don’t make mistakes they don’t they don’t learn near as much but I’ve had wonderful support wonderful support.

[Stephen] – That’s and and those boys remember those lessons. I mean like we were talking about with changing oil or checking a tire. Those are things they may not use very much in today’s world, but they do know how to do it and there’s a sense of confidence that it builds so when they come up against something they don’t know how to do they have the confidence of figure it out or to try or to go forward there. I’ve said, cause I have a talk that I’ve been working on giving on how the work world is changing and how to prepare our kids now for the work world of tomorrow and one of the things I say is kids to go climb trees because I had some of my friends some of my kids friends that came over and they were afraid to climb a tree and I’m like that right there sums it up to me as to something we need to teach our kids go climb a tree get outside climb a tree and see if you break your arm and it sounds like I know I know their parents that would listen to us and like condemn me for child abuse or or whatever because I said kids might break their arm when they climb a tree but

[Doug] – But but it is a metaphor for for the you know, the the helicopter parents that that that we have, you know, I mean again, I I know it’s a different world than the one that I grew up in but man I had some Huck Finn type experiences growing up and and I learned a lot from it. I learned a lot from home from us, you know bloody knees and from broken bones and and that kind of stuff, you know.

[Stephen] – Right. Yeah. I mean just a teaser I could tell you about the wood that ended up in the eggnog. I could tell you about the fencing that got knocked over because my head hit it because of the borough drug me through it off.

[Doug] – Yeah, I can relate relate

[Stephen] – And and the bring the kind of back down the writing again you wrote this book based on your life on your experiences on a need you saw in the community. I think sometimes people disregard their own knowledge and skills and things that they know how to do that seemed easy to them or things they’ve been doing a long time. They think nobody else needs to know how to do it or everybody already does but there’s a lot of things out there that people could write about in their own voice and teach others and put it in a book.

[Doug] – Yeah. Yep. I I agree with that completely, you know, but you picked up the book that I wrote and you look at it and every chapter is something that most adult only men and probably most women already know. I have heard that I include some details and some some other, you know, maybe little extras that they don’t otherwise get but what I did do that, I think kind of brings it home to people is I tried to sprinkle in some personal anecdotes from as I grew up or stories from some of the the story I told you about the governor coming down and and presented check that that’s in my chapter that introduces my chapter on goal-setting in the importance of working together toward a goal and what not, but it’s it’s a great story and and it’s a success and and it really, you know makes for a good way to to show how important working on goals is working on goals together is and whatnot. So again, I tried to I tried to do you make it a little bit more interesting by by sharing these stories to go, you know the kind of match up with the lesson I’m trying to teach.

[Stephen] – And I love them let me phrase it this way. I see that you could have written this book in two different ways. You could have written a book as a guide book for parents who have young boys and you could have done this and teach them to do this, but you didn’t do it that way you chose to put it in a voice written directly to the younger crowd and I think that’s also a choice many authors need to look at and make is what would get your message across the best and even though some would argue, well, the parents are for teaching the boys so right this to guide the parents and show them what to do, but you didn’t you felt it kind of in the boy’s hands to read the book and learn these things. Did you consciously think of that or?

[Doug] – I did do I did do that Stephen and and and I as I say, you know as I’d write a chapter that one one of the times that I read through it, I I made a conscious effort not to be preachy to the young men because they hate that I know they hate that they don’t like to be talked down to so again, I wanted to make it a conversational but yet I found that as I wrote it that way and again thinking of that single mother who has such a difficult challenge in raising a young man anyway, let alone teaching these skills or or ideas that you know, she may never been taught because she was a young lady at one point rather new young man, maybe using this as a a guide or a or a start for a little visit about some of these things so you know, you know, you know how to do this that or whatever well here take a look in this book read about it and maybe we can talk about it you know, that kind of thing. So I tried to I tried to bring those two ideas together to to make it, you know, very conversational to a young man but also allow, you know, not just a single mom parents can use it as well, but it’s the young man can sit down and read he doesn’t need somebody to to to preach to him.

[Stephen] – Right and I like that. thought that just popped into my head. Have you thought of writing a companion book that’s maybe a smaller thing or whatever for parents that goes into why you have a certain section or what the boys are learning in this section, but it’s written for the parent as a additional thing so they can maybe help guide the boys that may struggle or have problems cause someone in Florida that’s never going to meet you, you know, it may be helpful, just just a thought if you thought of anything like that.

[Doug] – I’m making a notice to say that I have I’d also had a suggestion that I would maybe create a journal type of book where there could be a lesson and then they could kind of add their thoughts on on the lesson and and how they applied it to to their life or whatever may be so, geeze you’re going to you’re going to make an author out to me yet Stephen.

[Stephen] – It’s kind of funny you say that cause I do another podcast with a friend and we talk about lots of nerd and geek type of stuff pop culture and that and one of his goals this year is to write a book I said, well, just let me know I’ve got an overwhelming amount of podcasts and websites and other books for you to read but I think that’s one of their also exciting things in today’s world. I have a friend who writes sci-fi he’s been published for thirty-three years, thirty-five years and he was writing a series of books and after he wrote the first one is writing the second one the publisher said hey, this is not selling that well, so we’re not going to do another one after the second book. So we went, ah man and had to like change all of book two and end things and just you know tie up all the loose ends then book two came out and book one and two both took off and sold really well and the publisher said hey, why don’t you write a third or more, you know write a whole series and he liked was stupefied. He was like well, I just kind of you know screwed myself up because I now closed all of that down. With self-publishing you have the choice, you know, so what if you’re booked only sells a hundred if you got the book out there you wanted and the way what and you still have that option to keep going into it and there’s so many things cause this is probably not anything you want to do, but you could probably create a course that’s online for boys to take and go through it and be you with your face and talking teaching these lessons just the way you do it with your boys right there in town, you know, I mean as an author there’s so many things you can do and keep going with a book like this a workbook, a second book, doing a book for girls or you know, something along those lines.

[Doug] – You know, it’s ironic. I have two daughters and a son and I did the book for for the boys but I’d need a lot of help doing the one for the girls

[Stephen] – And I I bet though, you could probably find an author that is kind of thinking the same and you probably could co-authors. Yeah, you never know I mean if you get tired of cars.

[Doug] – Well there are days if that’s the case

[Stephen] – I bet. Well if I ever get out your way, I’m going to stop your dealership and we’ll have to meet some of these boys and see some of these get-togethers you guys have for your group, I’d love to meet them and see how things go.

[Doug] – Oh, I I would I would love that. I have to tell you this morning we had a meeting at seven thirty and our lesson this morning we spend the when we learn how to tie ties we have to spend two whole meetings because it’s not something you can do in ten minutes and so here we were this morning we had the guys tie in a double overhand knot in the next week will work on the windsor knot and it’s so much fun. It’s just it really is fun I look forward to that every week. It’s the high point of my week.

[Stephen] – Well, well, I know I can still start a fire without gas, paper and only two matches and I can still tie like twelve different knots behind my back home so it’s important to learn these skills and they stay with you.

[Doug] – Absolutely. Yeah. I I made the comment this morning Boy Scouts tie knots and Explorers tie ties and there’s a and a place for both.

[Stephen] – Right. Well, you know, there’s probably some good knots to integrate cause I cringe when I see people trying to tie something and they just keep doing twenty million overhand knots and twist it around as if that makes it better.

[Doug] – I don’t know if you remember I told you I’m a sailor. So, you know, I’ve got a good a good appreciation for knots.

[Stephen] – There we go. Good know. Can yout tie it behind your back?

[Doug] – I always tie it at it looking at it.

[Stephen] – That was just our challenge.

[Doug] – Of course, of course.

[Stephen] – Which is another great thing, you know boys challenge each other and push each other and that feeds off itselfs.

[Doug] – It sure does.

[Stephen] – Great well to tie things up here. Do you have any last minute advice? You’d say I know we talked about this a bit on the last part of the podcast, but any last minute advice needs to an author that maybe wanting to write a book for boys.

[Doug] – You know, if you’re I guess it depends if you’re writing too boys as the audience. Tell stories, I think all young people but especially young men love to hear stories and you know to let the lesson can be in the story and I think there have been a lot of very skillful skillful authors that have have figured that out but my experience is that if you can tell a story wrapped around a lesson the lesson hits home a lot better.

[Stephen] – I love that. That’s great. Hey one last real quick question personally. You said you teach Sunday school and things do you incorporate some of the religious life turns into your Explorer group?

[Doug] – Well, you know, I I’m I’m a Christian I’m Catholic I pretty much everything that I do with the boys is, I guess the foundational is is Christian. I like to incorporate the Chris the Christian ideals and everything I teach the boys. Again I don’t want to be preachy at the end of the day, you know treat people right do the right thing and and everything will work out so, you know from that standpoint I do try to incorporate that usually all the the young men that are in my religious ed class are in the Explorers group so they get a double dose of me. They’re probably pretty sick and tired of wage the time they’re done with eighth grade.

[Stephen] – Well, I know Boy Scouts encouraged religious beliefs, but they didn’t dictate one way or the other and there were, you could earn a religious award for whatever your beliefs were and they always did try to have a service on Sunday when you were at camp, but they tried to keep it as open as possible and I’ll tell ya, I have a very hard time enjoying any type of religious service nowadays or even feeling I guess as close to the maker, God, or whatever you want term as I did when I was younger and sitting in a forest on the side of a mountain watching the shadow from our mountain may go down the mountain across from us while somebody was reading some scriptures out of the Bible. There was just no other experience like that.

[Doug] – Well in my religious ed class one of the questions that are when we’re when we’re talking about the first commandment I asked the boys when they feel closest to to God and before I asked him if he could answer I tell them that the time that I feel closest to God is when I’m sitting on the side of the hill watching the sunset over the Missouri River here in Central South Dakota. Maybe I’ve got orange on and I’m hunting deer dead or I’m hunting geese or maybe I’m just you know sitting out there but there’s nothing like there’s nothing like God’s majesty of nature to bring it home to you.

[Stephen] – Absolutely. I agree. I wish more people would experience that type of feeling I think there’d be some less problems in the world.

[Doug] – I agree.

[Stephen] – Well Doug I appreciate you taking so much time to talk to me today has been a great topic in your book is great. I’m I’m going to go check it out on Amazon as soon as we’re done here. I think my youngest who’s in middle school would probably love it.

[Doug] – Well, I appreciate that Steve and I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you. I’ve I’ve enjoyed our I’ve enjoyed our visit immensely.

[Stephen] – Great. Well Doug it was wonderful talking to you and I wish you luck.

[Doug] – Thank you very much.

Discovered Wordsmiths Non-Fiction

Episode 34A – Doug Knust – Man Stuff

Doug came to writing his first book in an interesting way. He felt there was a need to instruct boys in lessons for men and spent years running a group that helped accomplish that. Many of the lessons are bundled in his book, Man Stuff.

This helpful book is targeted to young men and designed to give them many things to learn as they grow.

By day, Doug owns and runs a car dealership, but loves spending his free time with his group – which is called The Explorers.

Some of Doug’s recommended leadership books:


Episode 34A Doug Knust Man Stuff

[Stephen]- Well to another episode of Discoverd Wordsmiths. We’re in a new year and starting with some really great books. Here’s the first non-fiction book of the year. It is written by Doug newest hero. He runs a group called The Explorers, which is a group for boys and he wrote a book called Man’s Stuff which has lessons. He’s taught to those boys as they grow up to be men and he’s been doing this for many years. So sit back check out Man Stuff. I would had really good time talking with Doug about it and if you like the podcast get his book, give us some likes pass it on to a friend. I hope people are finding books that they like to read and here’s Doug. Well Doug, welcome to the podcast and thank you for taking some time to talk to me today.

[Doug] – Well, thank you Stephen and I’m feel privileged to to be able to visit with you.

[Stephen]- Great. Well, I’m excited at first of all before we start talking about the book tell us a little bit about you who you are where you’re from some of the things you like to do besides writing.

[Doug] – Okay. Well, I’m I’m a car dealer Stephen. I’m a small town car dealer. I have a small Ford dealership in Winner South Dakota. I live in Chamberlain. I used to have a another dealership took a Chamberlain. I got a couple of NAPA auto parts stores got some real estate interests and whatnot. So I’m I’m would consider myself a small town business man, you know, the some of the things that I like to do. I’d like to golf. I like the sale. I like to hunt. I like to ride bike. I enjoy volunteering and working with with young men.

[Stephen] – Wow, that’s great and that we’re going to talk a little bit about is what helped inspire your writing.

[Doug] – Yes.

[Stephen] – So that kind of leads into it with what got you to finally say, hey, I want to write and start writing.

[Doug] – Well, I have had a a blog off probably for I don’t know why ten twelve years and it’s kind of of Stephen, it’s kind of a place where I went to blow off steam if I had a little frustration I would go off and voice my opinion there if I wanted to relax a little bit. I’d go tell a childhood story or some experience that happened to me and I found that to be somewhat therapeutic that combined with the the fact that in 2001 when my son was in seventh grade, I still started a middle school boys service club and and the idea behind that was to give these young guys an opportunity to be on a team even if they weren’t athletic some of these great athletes some of them had not a lot of athletic talent, but I felt like it’s important that these kids had a chance to be on some kind of a winning team and so we would have our meetings every morning, Thursday morning at seven thrity before school, which is pretty early if you’re a middle school boy when I say middle school I’m talking sixth, seventh, and eighth grade boys and so we would have our meetings at seven thirty every morning and discuss the activities how they were going to like raise some money or somebody that needed some help and and what not. Well sometime after 2011 I don’t remember exactly when it was I introduced this little segment to our half hour meetings called Man Stuff and first it started about five minutes long in a group of about ten minutes long and and in this little segment, I would just kind of go over something that I felt, you know was a skill or or something that I the young really needed to know to be successful and you know, everything from shaking hands to how to introduce yourself and whatnot and and the boys, Stephen the boys loved it. They just like it got to be like when they showed up at the meetings like what’s the Man Stuff today? What are we what are we doing for Man Stuff? And so, you know over the course of the meetings I I tried to have enough Man Stuff lessons, so I wasn’t repeating the same thing every year so it took three years worth of man stuff lessons because that would give them a chance to cycle through the three years that they were in the club. Well four or five years ago I started having some parents that were like really encouraging me to you know to maybe commit some of these Man Stuff lessons to a book and in I didn’t I don’t consider myself an author, I never considered myself an author but I did have all these notes that I had kept and used to talk to, you know, present the the demand stuff segment that each of these meetings and you know, I sold I sold one of my car dealerships and I found myself a little bit more time and I started thinking about you know, every year when the eighth when is the eighth graders in my in my organization move on they graduate from eighth grade or or move on to high school I presented him with a book and I always try to present him with a book that was a either a some type of inspiration for motivational or I found a few books that were just kind of related to this man stuff that I would that I would give each of them right a little personal inscription in each of them congratulate him and thank him and whatnot and I thought well wouldn’t it be cool if I could give each of these boys a book that I had written with their help that kind of would remind them of some of these of some of these lessons and so it was you know about a year ago little more than a year ago I said I’m going to try to do this I’m going to try to try to take these notes that I have in some home put him together into the form of a book and then of course COVID hit and I found myself with a little bit more time and this was just kind of a natural thing that helped me. I had started but the COVID kind of you know, poured the gas on the fire and it allowed me to kind of organize, organize my notes kind of assemlbe them into the form of a book and so that’s how the book came about.

[Stephen] – I love this and I swear this story it sounds like it could be a movie Doug, I mean picture have you ever heard of the old movie Follow Me Boys the it’s a boy it’s about boy scouts essentially know it had I can’t remember his name. There was a really at the time popular actor in it was in a Disney stuff, but Follow Me Boys sounds like your story

[Doug] – Sounds like something I should sounds like something I should look up and watch.

[Stephen] – Yes actually you should I would recommend it. It’s it’s a scoutmaster who spends his whole life as a helping these boys as they grow up and you know, and when he gets in trouble when he’s older and he feels like, oh nobody can help me it’s like all these young men show up to help them because they were all the young men he helped out her had a chance, you know, I’m sitting here going. Wow, that sounds just like it. You should look it up that

[Doug] – I will I’m making a note to do that.

[Stephen] – You wrote down all things that I think this is a skill that’s needed in today’s world. I was just talking about going to show my step-son how to tell tire pressure and fill up a tire without them using the thing. So you wrote down all these things and you had enough of them for three years worth and you said the boys were really receptive. It sounds like writing the book is just trying to reach a larger audience for you.

[Doug] – Well, you know, it isn’t even that Stephen. I gotta tell you that I have been amazed at how people have embraced this book because I literally as I post putting the book together, I was thinking I listed in the back of my book, I listed the 380 some young men who had gone through the Explorers this this that’s the name of this group had gone through the program and and kind of as an acknowledgement that they helped me write the book and my hope was that I could get a copy of the book in every one of their hands and I’d have something to go forward and you know to to give em young young guys as they as they finished the program going forward and I really never even thought about the idea of marketing the book to the public place and you know got some encouragement as I was doing this and and yeah, so that’s it it just kind of took off from there.

[Stephen] – That’s actually makes it even better because you weren’t thinking commercial you weren’t thinking making money, but the the need is there and I think the marked the audience in that type of thing is really out there I think there’s a lot more people with the same type of thing that in today’s world. It’s almost confusing. You know, I remember back in the eighties, you know, it’s like all I’m an eighties’ man I cry, you know that type of sentiment, you know, and we’ve lost a little bit of the hunter-gatherer the manliness thing I think sometimes it’s still isn’t needed thing in the world I think a lot of young boys grown into men they still feel kind of confused. I’m not not saying it off we have to go to completely separate gender roles and you know, I’m a man who look at me roar but you know, our culture used to have very set things, you know, the man did this the woman with this and I think sometimes that helps with identity itself and helps with self-confidence.

[Doug] – We we send very confusing mixed messages down to not just young men too young too young ladies as well and you know, I have thirty-four years of teaching religious education classes in my background as well. Most of it the you know, probably more than twenty-five years of it is teaching the Ten Commandments to eighth grade boys and so, you know in my goal when I do that is simply to take the Ten Commandments which were written, you know over five thousand years ago and try to put it in today’s American culture and believe it or not they are still very pertinent but you know, when you start teaching the Ten Commandments you realize off the mixed messages that that we send two kids and it’s it’s you know, that that masculinity thing, you know, this toxic masculinity term just drives me crazy. I don’t want to get too far off into the weeds on that but suffice it to say that a lot of young boys are confused and it’s not their fault it’s the messaging we’re sending them that confuses them.

[Stephen] – I agree and I think it’s great. It’s almost making it a little more black and white easier to understand having a book in the these are young men should learn about new I mean little things like should I hold this door open for this lady or is she go yell at me? Because she’s a strong independent woman who can do it herself and I say that because I’ve actually had a lady yell at me about that and I was so confused.

[Doug] – and there’s a chapter in my book about hold the door really so so you’ve nailed it. Yeah in my book I’ve broken it down there’s I think thirty-six chapters, thirty-four chapters, but there’s seven different sections. Ones on relationships and stuff and and it’s essentially dealing with people how to introduce yourself shaking hands looking people in the eye, you know, how how to help people just you know, the the bro hug one of them’s called the bro hug and the interesting thing about this particular segment is I had to kind of rearranged and change things a little bit because of COVID because I don’t know if the handshake will ever have the prominent role in our culture that it did prior to COVID but I do think a lot things that we get from a handshake will somehow have to be conveyed. So it has a place but I de-emphasized it a little bit because of the COVID but then I have a section on manners and stuff. I have a section on your body and stuff. I have a section on skills and stuff. That’s like how to tell a joke. How to cook a signature dish. How to assemble some qauilty tools for a life time, and then I have a section on leadership and stuff. I have a section on digtal stuff where I talk a little bit about the online you, social media some of that kind of stuff and then finally clothing and stuff. So those are kind of that the sections of the book and you know, each one of those kind of has its own pertinence to to today’s young man.

[Stephen] – I love that. I think it’s great cause like I mentioned we could talk about this more in the next section I was involved with scouts as an adult and I saw a definite need for something like that because it’s different than it used to be. We’ll getting the more things like that on the next part of the whole talk here.

[Doug] – Sure.

[Stephen] – Did you pulbish this yourself? Or is it did you get an agent with a publisher?

[Doug] – As you can probably imagine by hearing the back story the story Stephen, I took I took the shortcut okay, so to start with wage my daughter who does it for a living and she’s not a professional editor, but she does a lot of writing for a living. She was my editor. I’m grateful to the work that she did on my book. I think she did a marvelous job with the editing. I have a son who is a graphic artist and he designed the cover and the back cover for me and I took the path of least resistance I have few regrets along the way because of that but I just self-published on Amazon Kindle Direct publishing and I called was to get the book out as soon as I could so that I could give it to my eighth graders as they moved on to to high school. So I you know once I got a little momentum I just I want to get the book out.

[Stephen] – Okay, and I don’t think self-publishing is necessarily a shortcut cause there’s still a lot of work you have to do and it sounds like you were trying to make the book look like any book you’d see in the book store.

[Doug] – Yeah. I’m I’m very proud of the of the final product. I had I went into it knowing nothing. I learned a lot along the way down. You know, when when I say that I have some regrets I kind of I kind of wish that I would have made maybe had a publisher so I could go to some of the bookstore person present my book and you know, tell them how they can get it and what not, you know, and and of course when you’re when you’re with Amazon, you’re kind of stuck with Amazon unless you kind of hit the do-over switch, you know.

[Stephen] – Right and that was actually going to be my next question. What were some lessons you learned writing this book and if you wrote another book what you would do different. So do you think if you wrote some other book connected to this or not you would look at an agent a publisher or doing what would you do different?

[Doug] – I think I would self-publish again I just am not sure how long you know, let me let me just step up a level. As I said, I’m a small town business man and quite frankly the Amazons of the world are like direct threats to the people who run businesses in my community right the online just the whole online commerce thing is and so I don’t necessarily want to be that online guy. The flip side of that is, you know, somehow you got to get if you can try to sell the book to the public somehow you have to do that right, but I I would like to be able to support the small businesses and and be able to offer my product through them and so, you know, I I would probably self-publish but I do it in a manner where I control the distribution whereas I really don’t when I do it with Amazon, I mean Amazon controls the distribution. I’d like to be able to offer, you know, maybe offer if I had a second book if you bought the two of them, maybe there’d be a month or something thrown in or we’d give I’m a I’m a marketing guy. I mean that’s I’m a car dealer, right? So I see lots of different ways of doing it and Amazon pretty much steals your your ability to do any of that kind of stuff.

[Stephen] – Yeah. I totally agree I I we could probably have a whole discussion.

[Doug] – There’s there’s probably several podcasts just in that topic right there, but but but I will say that, you know my goal when when I went into this was to have a book that I could give to these young guys not only the ones that were in the program of the ones that have been through the program and and so, you know, that was the easiest way to get that done. Now I I see that there is probably not only a market but a need for the message that I’m trying to convey and and there was there’s probably a better way to get it out.

[Stephen] – Okay, so you’ve had some feedback and a lot of people encouraging you and a lot of the boys obviously helped shape the whole book through the years. What are some people saying that didn’t know you or that weren’t one of the boys what type of feedback are you getting from people that are received the book and discovering it?

[Doug] – You know the, now that I’ve gotten several times and it’s just probably really impacted me the most is the one that says I wish there was a book like this when I was growing up.

[Stephen] – Nice.

[Doug] – And that one just hits me right in the heart because that’s kind of what I want and and I have. The book is written in a very conversational style and it’s a conversation Stephen that’s not for an adult per se but for an eighth grader okay, and of course that that makes it I believe a little more inviting to most adults because often times books are written so that there are challenged to read I think everybody will find this a really simple read and that’s not to say it’s a simple message it’s just an easy read because I wrote it as if I was conversing with the young men that I work with.

[Stephen] – Some of the most popular books are young adult type books, but they’re red by thirty and forty year olds so you hit it on the head right there.

[Doug] – Yeah exactly. Yes, and so am I even though I wrote it for the young men and and a message that’s my intended reader. I’m finding that my market wage is there’s three there’s three segments of my market the most active one is grandparents, you know, and that’s very rewarding as somebody who’s a new grandparent myself. It’s really nice to see grandparents looking out for their young grandsons trying to help them. The second one is in, and the one that I that I need to do a better job of tapping is the single mother the the mother who’s raising his son and doesn’t have a male role model in the in the picture and they have an incredibly difficult job just making sure that they keep that young guy on the on the right path let alone trying to teach some of these lessons that nobody ever taught them in the first place right? Because they were they were young ladies and so I’m trying to find a better way to Market to that segment and then I have the young men and honestly young men don’t buy books for themselves, usually. It’s usually a gift you know, and so that that’s my ultimate market but it’s usually some kind of a trickle through to get it to them.

[Stephen] – Maybe for the second part marketing that’s a little something to talk about cause I’ve got kind of the same boat. I write middle-grade fantasy and you know, you can’t really mark it to the eighth grader you would have to market to the parents, but the parents aren’t home reading it. So maybe we’ll touch on that a little bit more.

[Doug] – I’m trying to figure out how to get a pop-up add on a video game I think that would be the way to the right market to those young guys.

[Stephen] – Yeah. Well, you need to start putting like a copy of your book in the back seat of all the cars when people test drive them family cars.

[Doug] – There ya go.

[Stephen] – So Doug, you’re a businessman first and it’s interesting that you’re a Ford dealer cause I made the comment that I haven’t seen a whole lot of Ford dealers around northeast Ohio as much as I used to it just seems there’s less of them for some reason, but do you have plans for a next book? Do you want to write more?

[Doug] – I have, not only the chapters that I didn’t include in the first book. I kind of took the ones that like to me seemed like the most logical first step but I but I hit about half of what I had. I’ve had literally twenty to twenty-five suggested topic some of which are just like why didn’t I think of that that was I totally left it out. When people read the book they they had been very rewarded by the fact that they feel like, well you do a good job of telling somebody how to do this, you know, and so, you know, there may be a a Man Stuff 2.0 more things of young man needs to know. I I’d like to I’d like to do that Stephen but I can’t say for sure that there will be because again I’m not an author I’m a guy that wrote a book. I’m a car dealer small business guy, you know what I mean.

[Stephen] – Which actually I love because it kind of shows today’s world you can write a book you can get it out there and people can love it and appreciate it even if thirty forty years agos the publishers wouldn’t have touched it.

[Doug] – Right.

[Stephen] – And that’s an important thing especially for a book like this.

[Doug] – Yeah. Yeah, I agree and and it it may be why so many people say I wish there was a book like this when I was younger because the publishers just never picked it up and ran with it, you know.

[Stephen] – Right. Well, I dunno I remember getting my kids a set of books. Dangerous book for boys and Dangerous book for girls and it was not quite the same not like lessons but things like things little boys do and things little girls do split it up but the funny thing is a lot of them were the same thing in the two books.

[Doug] – Sure. Sure.

[Stephen] – So I don’t know since you’re not an author first in your heart do you read much? Do you have any favorite books and authors?

[Doug] – I I love to read. I I travel. I Live sixty miles from one of my stores and a hundred miles from another one of my stores so I get plenty windshield time in I do a lot of audio books. I love motivational inspirational books. Malcolm Gladwell. I love Malcolm Gladwell I just think he’s got a a great way of taking kind of difficult research and putting it in main street language, you know, and then I like to do a little fiction. I like Michael Connelly like John Grisham. I have a a pretty long list of authors that I like. I I I do I do listen to thirty-five forty books a year so.

[Stephen] – Wow, nice. Okay, so do you have a section in your book on books that boys should read?

[Doug] – You know, I don’t have it specifically books that boys should read in my chapter on leadership I give ten titles that I think are great books on leadership, but you’ve just made a wonderful suggestion for another chapter in the next book if there is one.

[Stephen] – You know, there are definitely books I remember reading growing up in a lot of them things like Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer which aren’t as relevant to today’s youth but I think the sense of adventure and the just being a kid especially, you know, Tom Sawyer. He just loved.

[Doug] – Coming-of-age.

[Stephen] – Yeah. Yes.

[Doug] – Yeah and and I have to tell you I just finished a book yesterday called This Tender Land and I can’t even remember the author’s name off the top of my head. Just a great it was literally almost like a an extension of Huck Finn. It was it was a great book and I loved those coming-of-age type type of books. Stephen King Stand By Me is a one of my.

[Stephen] – I was just going to mention that, you read my mind.

[Doug] – It’s one of my favorite books. I just you know, it’s the things the young boys do they like to go out and discover and and whatnot and the adventures of a young man are just those are stories I love.

[Stephen] – So the ten books on your leadership what were some of those?

[Doug] – I know I got Dale Carnegie is in there. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey. Developing the Leader Within You, John C. Maxwell. Extreme Ownership How the U.S. Navy Seals Lead and Win. Leaders Eat Last Simon Sinek. Good to Great by Jim Collins. Principle Centered Leadership, Stephen Covey. The Art of War. How to Win Friends and Influence People. Wouldn’t on Leadership by John Wooden and Stephen Jameson and Drive: the Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Daniel Pink. I do enjoy Daniel Pink’s books as well he’s got an interesting way of taking just a lot of research and making it interesting and and something that it can be easy reading

[Stephen] – Nice. Yeah, that’s a pretty good list. I’ll make sure to include some links to those books in the podcast episode and you are a small town business man do you have any local bookstores that you like to go to?

[Doug] – You know community of twenty-five hundred I live in life businesses and community of twelve hundred and thirty-five hundred and unfortunately, the there are no dedicated bookstores per se down. There are some kind of neat little shops that I have been able to get my book into but there’s not really any place where you could just you know, go and and pick out a book. Now our our community is fortunate to have a real nice library and so I think that that helps to replace that lack of a bookstore a little bit but yeah, it’s just really tough in a in a small community to to generate enough income with books, you know.

[Stephen] – Yeah. So this this would be a great way to do this part of the podcast but do you have any words of advice for any boys that might be listening that are thinking of writing a book?

[Doug] – Well, you know, the the first one would be just commit to it. I I I messed around for four or five years, you know kind of thinking in my mind how I would organize what I would do. I had already done all the work but you know, once I committed to it it was not it seems like you know reminds me of the old saying how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time and date and once I committed to it, it wasn’t that difficult, you know every every Tuesday, I’d sit down for a couple hours and I’d work on it and and pretty soon I I had a, you know, the bulk of the work the bulk of the work done. I’ve heard some of your other guests say this and I really think it’s true and that is to just write about what you love what follow your passion, you know for me working with with young men has been a passion going back to high school. I coached Little League teams in high school and so, you know, that’s that’s been a passion of mine so it’s been real easy to write about that and then you know, once you once you once you have a book took a little extra time before you dive in I wish I would have done that. I wish it had done a little pre-marketing. I wish I would have looked into the options I had for publication and and promotion in some of that kind of stuff and I think if you do that, it gives you a chance to make the best decision for the book or the product that you write.

[Stephen] – Great. Well, thank you Doug I appreciate you taking some time to talk to us about your book today and we’ll continue on in a moment with the second half for writers.

[Doug] – Sounds good. Thanks, Steven.

[Stephen] – Thanks Doug.