Tory joins me again to discuss what he has gone through in setting up his business entity for publishing. There are many choices and reasons to use one type or another.
He also discusses using Sigil for formatting his book. Sigil is an open source epub editor. It is not for the faint of heart, but is powerful.
So welcome again to the podcast is going to be part B. That’s how I’m doing. I’m now a part A and B. So now what we’re doing is discussing a topic that has to do with new authors that new authors encounter. and sent to us said, Well, I just published a book and had to go through setting up the entity and the taxes, things and various things that affected that as a new business as a new author as a new book. So we’re going to talk about a few of those.
Yep. And it’s good to be back, I actually listened to your part B with with Penny Appleton. Yes. And I liked the concept of splitting it out. That’s what a cool idea.
It was actually more her idea, though, I had been kind of looking for something to do different. So I loved it. And I’m glad she threw that out there. And now it kind of hits two different markets. So Part A is like for readers. And Part B is for writers. So I can go after both.
Well, exactly. And and if you if you were able to like follow up every year or two with with a few authors, you could you could kind of follow along with that strategy, as they talked about versus yesterday happened.
Right? Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So we were talking about the rock rain book in part A, and you read that with Jim Crow, who I’m sure was digging out from about 15 inches of snow earlier this week. Here in Ohio, Lucky us. Some of that this way. It’ll probably come. But you know, the way the winds blow and all the Great Lakes, it all just dumps between here in New York. Um, so tell us, what were some of the things you had to get set up, and what you had to do and what you would recommend.
So I first of all, I decided that this one book, I’m going to go wide with it. And I’m going to do a kind of a multi approach sort of strategy. So I went in and set up an author account at Amazon and did the same thing with Apple books. And with Apple books, that actually took about two weeks because you have to you have to do it a step at a time they have to verify it. Right. So you when you go in there, you put one of the things you have to decide is are you uh, are you a, you know, an LLC, or a C Corp? Or are you a sole proprietor?
And you know, along with that, are you using your social security number as a tax ID? Or do you have an Ei n? Right? So I thought about that for a while. And then also with with Amazon or Apple, you have to decide if you’re going to use, you know, an ISV and that you buy or just go with Apple’s asi and they assign you
right there. You said like four sentences, and there’s already 500 million things, I think. So let’s back up one sec. So what why did you choose to go wide? Because when you do that, obviously, you can’t be in Kindle unlimited. If you’re going with anything else. And then why did you start with Amazon and apple? And are you gonna go with Google? And I guess why didn’t you use something like draft to digital? What were your choice? Or what were your decisions? Why did you come to those decisions?
One, I’m gonna go with Amazon and apple and then also data digital for everything else. Okay, but you’re going direct to those, right? The reason I want to go direct for those two is because I just like figuring stuff out. Okay. And so and the best way to do that is just to go ahead and do it.
Right. I agree. I like to do the same thing, right? Maybe Maybe sometimes it’d be better to not do it. But I also feel that in the future. Let’s say I’ve got 50 books out let’s say they’re selling really well. Don’t have time to handle all that, I would have to get somebody to help me. And I need to know what they’re doing know what the results are know how to answer their questions. So that’s a definite benefit with knowing how to do it.
Yeah, exactly. And I think, I think by by doing those steps manually, upfront, you have a better idea of, of how an aggregator like DDD does it. And you have a better idea of how to, I mean, more information is just better as far as marketing your book, using the platforms to their full, you know, capability that sort of Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. All the other things, when I was looking into it was, Apple at the time was really difficult to get books into it was next to impossible. Now, it’s a lot easier for a PC guy. And but Google also was difficult to get into. But now you can get into it easier going directly. But some of these also, you had to go direct if you want to do marketing, that’s not always true. Either. draft the digital has some connections into the marketing now to
Yep, and and those things will continue to, you know, change and evolve.
Google started out pretty user friendly from I understand, but now they’ve kind of, you know, stepped up their game. And it’s, I guess, it’s much, much easier. haven’t gotten to that point yet. But, you know, one step at a time. But yeah, all these things will eventually get easier. Whether you do it, you know, one at a time or through an aggregator they’ll Delaval eventually, you know, kind of line up in the same same process.
Now, I’m interested from your experience. Each of these whether it’s drafted digital, Google, Apple, Amazon, and you submit a file, they each take different file formats, and they will either accept or reject your file from different criteria. And I know everybody talks about jute or vellum on Apple, did you use that? Or did you do anything specific to get your format for your file?
One, I will never use vellum because I don’t want to learn another system. I use
yet you want to go to all the other places online directly you’re contradicting yourself there man, the
different systems for for writing my book, I use Microsoft Word. I won’t use vellum for that. And I don’t see any reason to to use vellum for one specific task. That That to me is not worth the cost or the time to learn how to use it. So I use that to digital to create the EPUB or mobi file. And then I just had a conversation recently with Mark Leslie, the fav. And I use a I downloaded a from his recommendation or downloaded an app called sigil, which lets you modify the E pub file itself.
Okay, is that si g? I l? Correct? Yeah. Okay. Yep. And so do ebook multi platform, ebook book editor. I’m looking at it cool,
right? Yeah. So actually, it gets into it lets you see the code of the entire file. So you don’t want to, you know, just start hacking away, you actually want to know what you’re looking for. And so I only made very minor changes, but it was something that couldn’t be done in draft to digital currently. Okay, which is why I asked him that question in the first place. So that was a pretty easy fix. Although it did take me about an hour to download the file, install on my computer, bring up the you know, the EPUB file and then figure out where I had to go to make the changes that was actually enjoyed that process. But it was, it was simple to do once you figured it out. You can you can modify, you can tailor your EPUB file by doing something like that, and then reload it to whatever platform you’re going for.
Okay, so you, you basically use that to do it all. That’s cool. I haven’t even heard of that one. So I’m glad to check it out.
Yeah, I think in theory, you could create the whole file that way but it’s easier to have, you know, vellum or gay to read. Create the original file and then if you want to modify it, you can do that with the separate sigil software.
Got it? Yeah. Okay. And I think that’s because I’ve used Judo j UTOH on the PC. And that seems to have done a pretty good job of getting the file modified without much input from me, right put into all the different places.
Yep. And again, you know, I kind of enjoyed the the, the low level Tech Challenge of figuring those systems out uploading to Amazon will be different than uploading to to, you know, Apple and And then, for my strategy day to day, go handle everything else. All the libraries, the foreign distributors, you know, whatever else is out there.
Got it. Okay.
Yeah. So that’s the that was that was the plan there. And then Apple had a second part, once they verify your tax ID, then you go in and you actually fill out, you know, the tax information so they can appropriately you know, deduct from whatever sales you get. Right. So you got, you know, I kept my business address is separate that my mailing address
with did you choose? Did you do LLC, or, oh, something
to start with, again, as a trial slash learning Korea, I’m just going sole proprietor with his first book. Got it. Okay. As I get more books on the back list, that’ll transition to probably an LLC. Okay, yeah. Just Just because, you know, if you want to start making a long term sort of business, income from your writing, you want to be a business entity. Got it, you’re gonna have to write offs, you’re gonna have expenses, you know, and you don’t have to do it that way. But if you want to get the most, you know, out of it with the least amount of onerous taxes, then you have to do a business entity.
So that’s the curb. So I like to try it and learn it. And then, you know, take the next step when I’m when I’m ready.
Okay, got it. So you set up, you submitted to Apple and Amazon right now, you’re planning some others later.
I’ve set up the accounts, I haven’t, haven’t actually loaded the file, put it up for sale yet. I’m still still in the in the second half of the final editing and revision stage. Okay, to have that up by Christmas time.
Hopefully, you’ll probably get it up. And that’s when something will go down. I mean, you hear those horror stories, people are like, I just got my book up and nothing’s showing. Now, are you guys doing anything with print? Are you just going ebook stuff right now?
We’re just starting with E book. And we’re just going to see, you know, how it goes, What takes shape, print and other formats, you know, take more time and money. So we want to make sure you know that that’ll be worth it. In the in the end, I guess I’ve already had a few requests for a sequel. So it’s looking positive, we’ll see.
Oh, good. I mean, you’re talking about SQL, looking at it.
Um, I wrote it with, with, you know, a trilogy in mind. So there’ll be there’ll be pieces of the story that will let you know, let a book two and three be written, you know, there’s little easter eggs and references to that. But it’s still a standalone story. So it’ll be fine on its own. And again, if, if you know if it does well, and Jim and I want to do another one, we’ll we’ll go that way.
Got it. Okay. And I must say, I have not finished it. But I did receive a copy. And I’ve been reading rock rain, I appreciate and definitely enjoy your style and your writing. You can do some things in your writing, I’ve noticed that I have a hard time with that in between what people say, you seem to me very easily to put in not just their thoughts, but the extra bit of information needed to build the world and expand on past history in the world and things like that. But you don’t have so much of it, that people are getting bored just reading tons of you know, info dumps you sparse it in there very well. I must say I’m enjoying that.
Oh, well. Thanks. But, you know, that’s a that’s a, that’s a balancing act. I’ve had a couple of leaders say well, I want to know more about this, this and that. So you know, you can’t please everybody, but yeah, it was I try to keep it. I try to keep it moving along quickly. So there’s there’s less of that.
Got it. Yeah. So you’re talking about writing a sequel? And I assume that’s going to go wide? also. Are you writing anything separate on your own anything else?
Oh, yes, I’m I’m halfway through book one of a series, kind of a sci fi space opera series planned.
Okay. And are you going to do that wide from the beginning? Also?
Yes, I yeah. My decision to go wide. As come over the course of like, probably two or three years, as I learned more about it, and it’s different for every author is different for your tempo of writing is different, whether you’re brand new or have a backlog, you know, so it’s ever changing. And but it’s a little more personal than that. Over the last two years, I have perceived, you know, micro steps taken by Amazon that that I think, are, are less and less beneficial to the author. Okay. And as recent, you know, debacle with their audio book return, you know, pretty much highlights that they’re, they’re all for their customer. And they sometimes just do all that stuff at the expense of the author. Right? And, you know, I’m not really, I don’t, I don’t hate Amazon by think, I don’t want to, you know, rely solely on them. And they’re, you know, and they’re went random decisions.
Got it. And you know, that’s a valid, you know, I know, there’s two different camps or even more than that, and people say different things. I know a lot of people will go up on Amazon To start with, for k U. And then once that starts to dwindle, they go wide. But I mean, a lot of the authors I talked to are just starting out. So I don’t have a lot of personal talking to in discussions with people on how it’s affected them. So that would definitely be a great topic to talk to you about in a year, see how things are going?
Yeah. And you know, I might I will probably do. I will probably do the the book, I’m writing the first in a series, probably k you just to see what the experience is.
That’s not a bad idea.
Yeah. And that’s more again, you know, for gathering knowledge and experience and see how it goes. But there’s a much wider world out there that Amazon doesn’t reach. And there’s a lot of people out there that won’t go to Amazon just because they’re Amazon. Right. And I just listened to a podcast this morning. And they were talking about going wide versus k U. And it really kind of depends on your long term strategy, in some ways, if you want to build a wider audience with, with more platforms, and more, more different editions of your book, you know, so print, ebook, large print, audio book, you know, to cover? Yeah, there’s a lot more out there than just Amazon. Right? So why not go live from the beginning and start building that, you know, building that reputation, that platform and add your reader audience, rather than staying exclusive to one, you know, one basket of eggs.
Right. But then there’s a counter argument that more people go to Amazon looking to buy books. So if you’re there under Kindle Unlimited, you have more exposure, so your chances of selling more. I you know, that’s just the two arguments I’ve heard on both sides. And I’ve done both myself. I’ve got some nonfiction books that originally were just on Amazon, we’re in Kindle unlimited. Totally wrong choice, because the category wasn’t something that anybody read in Kindle unlimited. So that didn’t help me any intense I’ve gone wide with them. They’ve been selling, okay, I don’t advertise them anymore. I don’t really push them at all. But I still sell several a week in the books, and a lot of them wine. I’ve sold tons in Australia. So I don’t know why. And it’s not all through Amazon. You know, I use publish drive. I’ve got street lib. And I’m just trying them all out. Those are like my test books, I guess. Right. And I have seen sales in just about every platform without doing a pushing on them. So the next thing is to start, like Barnes and Noble. I’ve made a couple sales. But I know I could do some marketing on Barnes and Noble. But then, like you said, you start getting all your time tied up in managing, you know, 10 books in 20 different locations with five different marketing things going on. It’s like okay, well now it’s four o’clock, I have to make supper and I haven’t written a word all day. So there’s definitely that balance going on.
Yeah, and that changes, you know, for an author over time, their first book versus their 10th book, you know that that entire strategy, how you manage your time is way different between the two. So it kind of evolved. There’s nothing that says you have to stay with one or the other forever. You can go back and you can mix and match
And like I hear all the time, you know, it’s per book, just because you went Kindle unlimited with one book or book series doesn’t mean you have to do it for the next one, you can change that.
Right, exactly. And the same concept with, you know, go on traditionally published versus going indie published, you know, the, the, the prevailing wisdom now as well if you want to do both, then go ahead and do both. But again, it’s it’s per book to
write. And that’s changed from I mean, I haven’t even pursued traditionally. But that seems to be changing to that before, oh, you will never hire you or never buy your book because you printed something independently. Now, it’s not as big a deal as from what I’m seeing. I mean, Jay is going traditional, and he’s got a ton of books. Yeah.
Jay, and Zack and JD just had a really good discussion on that on their wider zinc podcast. Yeah. And, and it’s funny, because this pandemic, kind of pushed the traditional publishers into the market, probably sooner than they really wanted to, or thought they could.
it’s gonna be it’s gonna be fun to watch them completely transform themselves just to stay afloat. You know, they got a merger going on right now. So that’s a good indication of, of the times.
I that’s a whole nother topic, the Simon Schuster random penguin thing going on? Yeah, but I like a lot of people said that, like, Well, that doesn’t affect me, regardless. And that’s true. If you’re independent, that you know what you’re talking about going wide. And that’s the best thing about what we’re doing is if you’re on top of it, and you’re flexible, and you can pay attention, things don’t have to affect you. And like, like you were saying about going with this platform or another, there’s been a lot of push for selling things directly from your website and controlling every aspect. And I know, book funnel is now offering the ability to sell things direct. And there’s multiple other services out there. So I know I was talking to somebody else. And sorry, you don’t remember who that they’re like, I’m going to put everything on Amazon. And then I’m going to go wide. And then I’m going to start putting all my books on my website, Mike. Well, the problem is, you’re training everybody to go to Amazon first. And then all those Amazon people go, well wait a second. Now I can only get your book. If I go to Google, I don’t want to go to Google. You don’t want to do that. And then they’re like, Well, why should I go to your website, I’ll just wait for you to put it on Google where I’ve always gotten it and when you’re, you know, so that’s a part of that decision. Also, if you want to sell from your website, how is it going to be affected if you go elsewhere?
Exactly. And you have to, you have to train yourself to think long term to make those kinds of decisions. Right? It’s fine if you want to go all in one or all wide. But don’t expect you know, it all to change overnight if you want to change your mind. Right? Cuz you’re right you do train your readers, if you hit point him in one direction to start with because people like
yes. And I know people on k you they won’t go elsewhere. If you put book one on k you but then makes book too wide. You’ll never read it, etc. And I know the other thing that I looked at in Can I considered was okay, I put some stuff on Kindle unlimited in Amazon and I went wide with it. And I was like, Oh my god, no, I had sales wide. I had cell sales elsewhere. And the great thing about doing that wide, or even selling on your home website, is you don’t have that 30 day drop off everyone talks about Oh, my books served for 30 days and then it died. Now I don’t have anything got to get them up next book out. Well, like I said, I’ve had books on wide everywhere. And they sell a couple a week. Again, they’re not popular category of nonfiction and I do know marketing. Obviously I could probably improve that but that’s not the point for me for those right so I’m not as afraid of that 30 day drop off again. I’ve got control of my own material I can you know do whatever I want. I can do marketing I can put it elsewhere etc. So that’s the other consideration don’t too many people and I agree. rely completely on Amazon. Oh, now I’ve got to get our book out because Amazon’s not pushing mine anymore. But there’s choices.
Exactly. And it comes down to you know your your personal pain point.
Do you want easy with you’re not much thinking involved in probably k use probably the best answer and I If you plan on putting out, you know, books on, on whatever kind of regular basis, and you just want the easiest route possible, then then that’ll work. But if you if you want to, if you have some time and some patience, and a overall, you know, bigger strategy, then you have to, you know, just pick and choose your, your platforms and route and timing, you know, as appropriate. Yeah. For me flexible too, though,
right. And I know, for me, I wasn’t of the mindset, or I gotta get a book out there making a million seller and become super rich. That was my mindset. And oh, and that’s probably going to help me in the long run. There might not see the great spike in sales at the beginning. But, you know, that’s the long tail.
Exactly. And, and from what I can tell, you know, authors today that are that are prolific and doing well, you know, started out with one book, so they had to build up to, you know, a couple of backlist before they started making any kind of real income. So it’s a natural progression for everybody, not just, you know, not starting out.
But again, what we’re really saying is everybody has to look at all of this and make your own choices, because none of the answers are completely wrong. It’s just what works best for you.
Exactly. Yeah, there’s not one, there’s not one strategy or formula for everybody.
Right? I know a lot of people still use Smashwords. And they get into Baker and Taylor through Smashwords. And they sell why through Smashwords? Well, I don’t particularly like Smashwords, I don’t, I don’t I don’t know, it’s just not my comfortable aggregator. I do put stuff on Smashwords. But it doesn’t go anywhere. But Smashwords, I turn everything else off. And that’s the other great thing you can have that power, the funding thing is, the one place you cannot control where it gets distributed is Ingram Spark. And that’s one of my problems with Ingram Spark, is once you put it into their catalog, they just shoot it everywhere. So it’s like why don’t want them to do it here or there. But you don’t get a choice. So personally, I just use Ingram spark for the print. And everything else I do ebook.
Well, and that just highlights the need to, you know, really know what you’re using and why you’re using it, and how it’s being used. And that’s where, you know, there’s so many different combinations, it’s gonna be different for every author.
Yeah, absolutely. And I know a lot of people don’t talk about print at all.
Right. And, and, and you should I mean, but then again, that’s part of your strategy is that the market you want to reach also, or you care about that? Or, you know, and, and like you said, I’m not in a hurry to strike a rich, I’d be happy to, you know, do this for the next 20 years and let it build up slowly. I’m in no particular hurry.
Right. What you said about knowing your market and who you’re writing to, you mentioned Jackie Penn, she writes romance, and she writes romance for older adults. Well, both of those, that demographic and that category, sell extremely well on Amazon and Kay, you. And I think that’s the only place she has her books. Whereas I’m doing middle grade, which is shown that more middle graders want a print book, then they want an ebook, or their parents buy a form or whatever. So I’m better off having put in pushing the print. So you just have to really know what you’re writing and for who?
Yeah, and Exactly. And like, like, you know, Joanna pen is always saying, you know, you have multiple choices of formats, why not do them all
right. Yeah. And, you know, I’m looking at wanting to do a hardback, it takes a little bit more to do so I’m working on getting there, but I want to offer a special edition hardback with my bonus short stories included in the hardback. So it’s the special edition. Yeah. Other people. Yeah, I
would think you putting all of those. Wasn’t you talking about writing short stories for your kids? That’s somebody else. Yeah.
Yeah, that’s me. Yeah. I’m working on one right now. I’m way behind. Putting all this in a collection of you really cool idea, I think. Yeah, well, the only problem is they’re turning into full length novels. Now. Last year’s was almost 40,000 words. I mean, the first year was only 7000. And this year, I’m still working on it. So I think what I’m really going to do with that series is go back and take the first two or three stories and expand them which I think they can do easily. Lily and release him as a series of books.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a great idea. I think there was one more thing we have gotten discussed. I forget what it was.
Yeah. Let’s see wide versus exclusive getting accounts set up business entity, and an E pub formatting trick. So I think that was actually awesome. Yeah, we did all that. And I love, love the sigil thing. I’m gonna put a link to that in in the notes for the show. So I appreciate that.
Yeah, actually, I’ll send you a link because it’s not directly on the sigil site itself. It’s, it’s sideways somehow.
Yeah, you have to go to the GitHub, which may confuse some people,
right. Yeah, it took me a while to find it and download the correct file. Right. But once you do it, it’s it’s actually it’s easy after that.
Right. Now, you know, I’m gonna go back and ask you another thing with vellum. You said you didn’t really want Lerner’s software, etc. But vellum, you can write in word and then import that into vellum? Correct?
Um, I don’t know, I’ve never used develops, I don’t know.
Okay, I believe you can. So I mean, what a lot of this is, honestly, I’ve thought of buying a Mac only for vellum. If it’s that good, because everyone says you just write in Scrivener or word or whatever. And then you just import it in the vellum, hit the button, and it gives you the file it like magically knows everything you need. So yeah, I’d love to test that out. Maybe I’ll find somebody to talk to about that.
Um, yeah, not a bad idea. And the reason I won’t bother is because the D to D, feature to your My Word doc into a file is, is free. And it’s super easy. So why would I bought something else?
Right? That’s very true. And again, if we have the options, and we work for ourselves and control it, we can do whichever works best for us.
Right. And that’s why what I mentioned a little earlier is that there are now lots of options out there. And, and each option is similar but a little bit different. So it can you know, whatever one works best for you is what you want to go with.
Yeah. And, you know, sometimes it takes a little bit of work to try them out, though, just like you said, with setting up the apple account, the Google account, the Barnes and Noble account, draft to digital, etc, etc.
Yeah, and, you know, that’s never gonna go away that little bit of effort unless you simply hire it, you know, to somebody else. But that’s a good thing. Because you want to know what you’re doing and where your product is going and how it’s being used. You don’t want to just throw it up there, you know, willy nilly dial and hope it does something, you can’t leave it to that.
Well, there are people that you know, they just want to write, they don’t care about the tech. So I mean, that is viable for some people, but then they spend the extra money, having to hire somebody and having to trust that person to. But again, it’s your business, if that works for you. Who knows, maybe they get an extra two hours of writing done each day that I’m losing by checking all these different sites.
Well, exactly. And it’s definitely a trade off. You have to know your strengths and weaknesses. Like you know, for example, I’m not a website builder, some I hired a some help to do that. I could I build a website? Yeah, would it suck? Probably. It’s easier to just hire somebody to get a good one the first time around.
Well, that’s true. That’s something I’m with because I mean, I do web stuff. I’m a computer guy. I have a hosting server. So I set up WordPress, I got the Divi plugin for theme and all that. And I’ve put all the elements in and I look at I’m like, okay, it’s usable. But I totally understand I could hire somebody to do it better. But I’m kind of also getting to the point where I’ve got to start getting more stuff out. And it’s got to start paying for itself after several years of courses and books and online nursing conferences and materials and etc. So, you know, we got to start working our way out of the hole, getting some profit that pays for everything else. So there’s that balance, too.
Yeah. And, and the guy I hired I hired, Nate has a filter to help me with the website. And part of part of the agreement is is that he’s going to show me how to manage it, not just build it for me. So that’s good. I’ll be able to update it make changes, you know, remove old content, add new content, that sort of thing. kind of want to just a static thing never changes, it’s gonna be, you know, oh, yeah, updated and, and it’s gonna be more efficient for me just to know how to do it rather than to, you know, get in his queue and have him do it, you know, in his busy schedule. So upfront, build up the the, the the frame, and then I can show me how to do the rest of it and I can maintain it myself. That’s kind of the goal.
And that’s the smart way to do it. hire somebody to do the overall layout and design and then create templates. And then you can just keep adding pages using the templates. Right in the content. Yeah, that’s a smart way to do it. Yeah. Go ahead. Anything else, sir? Oh, Jesus. Anything else, sir? Um, no, I
think we covered a lot of stuff in a short period.
Yeah, well, yeah. About half hour. That’s good. Okay, well, sorry. I appreciate you taking some time to come back on for part B, and discussing everything about setting up entities and your choices for doing so.
Yeah, well, thanks for having me back. And hope this helps some folks out there.
Yeah, I hope so. You know, and I hope rock rain does well for you and Jim. Soon as the pandemics over and he’s, you know, not compromised. I told him I we got to sit down have a cup of coffee.
Yeah, coffee, couple beers. And yeah, Gemini like couple tequilas on occasion. So
if you come back into town sometime, shoot me a line and maybe we can meet up to say, Hey,
I think that’s an excellent idea. As soon as we can all travel and fly in a burden. And yeah, well does. The boat is normal. Again, if that’s even
more normal. You don’t want to come right now. Where I live Portage County, we just got upgraded to level four purple, which is like the worst level. We can’t get any worse. So yeah, don’t come around us right now.
Well, I’ll tell you what, send me some of that snow because we have none right now over here.
Well, I could send it but I’m not sure how it would arrive. Fair enough. All right. Thank you, sir. You have a great day. All right. You too, man. Have a good one.